Ford, GM explore joint engines

[justen]

General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. are discussing a possible collaboration to develop new engines and other powertrain technologies, according to sources at both companies.

http://www.fullsizechevy.com/blog/2008/08/04/ford-gm-explore-joint-engines/

[Saltmine]

Why not? Ford hasn't built or designed a decent engine since the flathead.

And, guys have been putting Chevy engines in Fords since the automobile was invented...

My only question is: What's GM getting out of this?

[danny]

Why not?

And, guys have been putting Chevy engines in Fords since the automobile was invented...



yep-built ford tuff with chevy stuff :D

[justen]

Well from what I get the chevy volt electric car is what ford would like to learn. As for chevy, only thing I can think of getting out of this deal is cheaper engine and drivetrain research. Would be interesting to see what comes out of it for both companies. I know in 2009 or 2010 chevy half-tons will be coming out with a 6 speed automatic. I don't know if ford would benefit with a setup like that or not.

[carsandcycles]

The benefits are to share developmental costs, share technologies and probably help defend against the foreign competition. It worked in the developement of the joint venture of the six speed transmission so I guess they're going to try it with engines and other things. Hopefully a win/win situation.

[Saltmine]

The six-speed trans is in use on present day Chevy trucks...They also developed a six-speed trans for front drives, too. The Ford 500 has a Hydromatic designed transmission. I guess they figured they had to do something after they introduced the "mystery shifter" CVT transmission in the 500, a couple of years ago, and couldn't give 'em away.

I suppose Ford has come to realize that,"If you can't bet 'em, join them."

[vetteonr]

So now it's come to this. The big three can't compete individually, so they have to team up on some things. PATHETIC! We went through this in the 70's, yet the big 3 still went on building a platform that was more profitable than diverse. Now they are paying the price. I'm all for American companies leading the world, but it's there own d a m n fault they're in the mess they're in.

Those who don't study history are bound to repeat it.

[justen]

Ford would benefit some, Everyone I talk to that has a ford truck does not brag about their fuel mileage. Thats both gas or diesel. Ford isn't doing something right there. I also hear of the ford expedition with a 4.6L thats under powered. And if you buy one with a 5.4L it feels like you're driving a rocket.

For chevy I hope they get things worked out with some of their new engines. The ones that develop a cold knock when you first start them. Older chevy's never did that. So to me something isn't quite right there. The wife's malibu has that cold start knock and I think it's carbon. But everything so crammed together I really don't want to look at it.

If you can get the best out of ford, and the best out of chevy and make a good drivetrain. That might be one heck of a good setup. Besides, mazda would look good with a part gm engine in it lol.

[Wheel]

Why not? Ford hasn't built or designed a decent engine since the flathead.

And, guys have been putting Chevy engines in Fords since the automobile was invented...

My only question is: What's GM getting out of this?

From what I understand, one of the reasons that some folks install chevy V8s in the old Fords that were built before the V8s was around is the motor mounts line up better. I could be wrong but I've heard that a few times from different people.

I've only owned a couple of chevys but I never liked the distributor back against the firewall. Easier to work on the points when they are at the front of engine.

It seems that everyone likes the ford rearends.

Its a shame but I can understand how both companies can save a bunch of cash working together.

[Wheel]

Ford would benefit some, Everyone I talk to that has a ford truck does not brag about their fuel mileage. Thats both gas or diesel. Ford isn't doing something right there. I also hear of the ford expedition with a 4.6L thats under powered. And if you buy one with a 5.4L it feels like you're driving a rocket.

I can't really complain about my millage considering its a F350 crew cab with an eight foot bed. I get over 600 miles from a 35 gal tank which is over 17 MPG in the city. On a trip, I get up in the twenties. Not bad for the size and weight.

[danny]

I can't really complain about my millage considering its a F350 crew cab with an eight foot bed. I get over 600 miles from a 35 gal tank which is over 17 MPG in the city. On a trip, I get up in the twenties. Not bad for the size and weight.

actually that is excellent mpg for a truck that size.

[Saltmine]

That is good mileage for an F-350....must be a diesel.... What's a shame is a short-box, small cab, gas engined, F-150 won't do any better....

But there is hope.....the D-1500 Dodge pickup with V-8 and automatic transmission has been voted "The worst gas mileage of any vehicle sold in the US" six years in a row, now. Second was the Lincoln Navigator, though.

[Troadster]

For chevy I hope they get things worked out with some of their new engines. The ones that develop a cold knock when you first start them. Older chevy's never did that. So to me something isn't quite right there. The wife's malibu has that cold start knock and I think it's carbon. But everything so crammed together I really don't want to look at it.
.



Hay I heard that the reason for the cold start knock was in the piston's. When the piston got worm it expanded and took out the clearance. Older GM mechanic was telling me about it. His car only had 175000 on it and he was not real worried about it.

[Porcupine]

My Ford Explorer 4.6 gets 25.5 MPG (converted Imperial gallon from Liters).
I can't complain about the quailty of my Ford
But in retaliation Mine is Ford tuff with Ford stuff.

My company vehicle is also the E250 Ford. I only hate it because it's way to big for my application, rides like a lumber truck very stiff suspension and I carry no weight aside from radio equipment 50lbs or so. Because I hate the size of the truck I go out of my way to try to kill it. It won't die.
The Chevy equivilant would be no better

[olddog]

I will remind the old salty one that back in the 60's Ford pretty much won every type of race on all continents. The AC Shelby Cobra's with small blocks pretty much won it all. The GT40 crushed the Europeans with the 427 FE. Let's see Mopar was Fords only competition in nascar. As I remember it the GM stuff started out fast, but couldn't hold them together long enough to finish. Again Ford and Mopar dominated drag racing, but Chevy did squeek in a win hear and there, as they usually stayed together for a 13 second race.

I know that Ford never made a good overhead valve engine, but they sure did win a lot of races with that poorly designed junk.

Buy the way my son's 2006 Lincoln Navigator has a 6 speed automatic with the 5.4 engine. Pulls his boat like there is nothing back there and rides better than most cars.

For being total junk, the thing sure does seem nice. :rolleyes: :D

I don't understan why he got rid of the Cadilac as it was superior GM designed. I guess he hated the cold engine knock, oil burning, north star, and the constant road force reballancing the tires to keep the front end from vibrating.

[danny]

petty didn't drive a ford in the 60's

[Wheel]

http://benchracing.typepad.com/bench_racing_with_steve_a/images/2007/05/01/richard_petty_ford.jpg
Are you sure he never drove a Ford?

[Porcupine]

I will remind the old salty one that back in the 60's Ford pretty much won every type of race on all continents. The AC Shelby Cobra's with small blocks pretty much won it all. The GT40 crushed the Europeans with the 427 FE. Let's see Mopar was Fords only competition in nascar. As I remember it the GM stuff started out fast, but couldn't hold them together long enough to finish. Again Ford and Mopar dominated drag racing, but Chevy did squeek in a win hear and there, as they usually stayed together for a 13 second race.

I know that Ford never made a good overhead valve engine, but they sure did win a lot of races with that poorly designed junk.

Buy the way my son's 2006 Lincoln Navigator has a 6 speed automatic with the 5.4 engine. Pulls his boat like there is nothing back there and rides better than most cars.

For being total junk, the thing sure does seem nice. :rolleyes: :D

I don't understan why he got rid of the Cadilac as it was superior GM designed. I guess he hated the cold engine knock, oil burning, north star, and the constant road force reballancing the tires to keep the front end from vibrating.




:D




By the way, I had a great opportunity to shine this summer. Back in early July we were all up at the cottage not far from where Justen was. The property for the cottage has this massive slope from the main road down to the lake. For many that have experienced the seemingly endless rain this summer, you can well imgaine a slick driveway. Mostly a grassy driveway.

At the end of the driveway closer to the cottage is all downhill. My son's 2008 KIA Sedona (minivan) got stuck without trying. He spun and spun and just kept digging in. I knew my Explorer was capable but have never used 4x4 all that much.
I hooked up the tow strap: 4x4 low, put the tranny in low gear and towed him up the hill. Obviously it was no issue but I asked him if he sensed he was spinning when he had it in reverse. He said he had it in neutral all the way and only had the engine on for the power steering.
Not being a 4x4 pro I was a little surprised? and could not wipe the smile off my face.

Ok, so I'm sure just about any 4x4 could do the same, but that was my moment to enjoy. Plus, I did not have my engine RPM much above idle. Severe gearing did its thing.

[vetteonr]

Good story porko. The only down side is you spent the next 3 hours cleaning the mud off of it. I know how you are! :eek:

[danny]

http://benchracing.typepad.com/bench_racing_with_steve_a/images/2007/05/01/richard_petty_ford.jpg
Are you sure he never drove a Ford?


photoshop?

[Porcupine]

Good story porko. The only down side is you spent the next 3 hours cleaning the mud off of it. I know how you are! :eek:
You're right, but I didn't need to clean anything off the Explorer because my wheels never spun. Just a little above idle and it seemingly walked up the hill with no effort. You guys know that I'm not an off-roader but it sure felt good just the same. Little tests like that let you know what it's capable of.

I'm sure the 4x4 users here know all too well what it's all about.

[justen]

http://benchracing.typepad.com/bench_racing_with_steve_a/images/2007/05/01/richard_petty_ford.jpg
Are you sure he never drove a Ford?

This must be a twin lol.

[Saltmine]

Well, if we're going to talk about NASCAR drivers....Mark Martin hasn't won a race in years....driving a Ford. This year, he switched to a Chevy, and won several races....I wonder why?


Oh, and yes, Ford and Chrysler DID win a lot of races back in the late '50's and early '60's....They fielded huge, gas guzzling engines, and in one case, got that type of engine banned from competition (overhead cammer).

GM didn't have anything but the small-block and the big-block truck engine...
But....later on, when NASCAR lowered the cubic inch limit...Chrysler and Ford got clobbered....

When Chrysler wanted to get back into NASCAR, they went snivelling to NASCAR because their engines were not even remotely competitive....NASCAR said they could use either a Ford or a GM engine until they developed a competitive engine.....They chose Chevy engines....in both cars and truck racing.
When Toyota wanted to join the party, they went to NASCAR....They didn't have a V-8 engine that was "legal" under NASCAR rules (they still don't)
NASCAR gave them the same choice...Ford or GM. They raced both trucks and cars with Chevy engines until they got their "racing engine" off the drawing board....NASCAR rules clearly state the engines used in the race cars must be production engines....but, you'll never be able to buy a pushrod, two-valve, Toyota V-8 anywhere on this earth.....
Recently, the Toyota off-road racing team got caught with Chevy V-8's in their racing trucks...Their excuse? They didn't want to worry about destroying their expensive Toyota engines during practice, so, they bolted in Chevy LS engines...and beat the heck out of them....
Toyota swears that their off-road racing trucks have never been raced with Chevy engines, though....

[danny]

http://benchracing.typepad.com/bench_racing_with_steve_a/images/2007/05/01/richard_petty_ford.jpg
Are you sure he never drove a Ford?


ok i stand corrected, he did drive a ford in the '69 season because dodge wouldn't let him have a charger. chrysler thought he should stay with the plymouths so in retaliation he switched for one season-he did switch again when chrysler pulled out of racing-he drove pontiacs for a while.

[olddog]

GM didn't have anything but the small-block and the big-block truck engine...
But....later on, when NASCAR lowered the cubic inch limit...Chrysler and Ford got clobbered....

The great thing about getting old is you cannot remember things exactly the way they were, so you just choose to remember it the way you want. Now I am not certain about this, but I think Chevy came out with the 409 in the early 60's. It was the largest cid at the time. Ford may have introduced the 390 prior to the 409. If not Ford was still at 352.

When Ford was running the 427 FE against the Mopar 426, I do believe Chevy was running their 427 against them. I know for certain a friend had a 1966 or 1967 Corvette with a 427 in it. So please don't try to tell me Poor Chevy didn't have a big block in those days and had to run a small block, when they were first with the big block 409, which was quickly replaced with the 396, 427, 454 big block class.

Oh, and yes, Ford and Chrysler DID win a lot of races back in the late '50's and early '60's....They fielded huge, gas guzzling engines, and in one case, got that type of engine banned from competition (overhead cammer).

As for the Ford 427 cammer, the engine was a true hemi. It was built to trump the Mopar 426, and likely would have. Nascar changed the rules and outlawed the Hemi engines, because no one other than Ford could compete with them. So the cammer never ran on a Nascar track and instead went to drag racing, where it took many race tittles. As much as I admired the 426, you have to take your hat off to the 427 FE tunnel port, as it was the only wedge engine that could hold its own with the 426 Hemi. Chevy nor any other GM could not compete with them, and yes they were running the same cid. I suspect it was GM whining to Nascar that got the Hemi engines banned. It sure wasn't Ford, they were building their own hemi, when it got banned.

They were all running huge gas guzzlers and no one cared!

[olddog]

Over the years the small block Ford has taken many Nascar, Winston Cup, Bush, you name it wins. I do not follow racing much at all. I have no idea if Chevy or Ford took the most, but I suspect both have done well. They are both good engines.

[olddog]

ok i stand corrected, he did drive a ford in the '69 season because dodge wouldn't let him have a charger. chrysler thought he should stay with the plymouths so in retaliation he switched for one season-he did switch again when chrysler pulled out of racing-he drove pontiacs for a while.
Notice that he did not switch to Chevy, as at that time it would have made him a looser for certain.

[olddog]

Well, if we're going to talk about NASCAR drivers....Mark Martin hasn't won a race in years....driving a Ford. This year, he switched to a Chevy, and won several races....I wonder why?
I honestly no nothing about this, but my guess would be that he got new sponsors, new car, new team, and the engine manufacturer has little to do with it.

[danny]

Notice that he did not switch to Chevy, as at that time it would have made him a looser for certain.

he wasn't too successful with the ford either-he was still a loser

[danny]

Over the years the small block Ford has taken many Nascar, Winston Cup, Bush, you name it wins. I do not follow racing much at all. I have no idea if Chevy or Ford took the most, but I suspect both have done well. They are both good engines.

the monte carlo was the winningest model car in nascar history. but you did say you don't follow racing that much. ford has done well in nascar and other series too.

[Saltmine]

I can't really put much faith in NASCAR, anymore.

Ever since Dale Earnhardt died, I've lost interest.

Besides....it's SUPPOSED to be STOCK CAR racing....Not a bunch of silhouette cars, powered by obsolete truck engines, with stone-age carburators and distributors...

Say what you like, NASCAR has become very unrealistic.

They're all racing front-wheel-drive bodies on custom built tube frames.

Chrysler and Toyota are using engines that were "purpose built" for NASCAR, and are unavailable to the general public.

Ford uses an obsolete truck engine.....that hasn't been in production for over ten years, and never used in a Taurus...or a Fusion.

GM's engine is also based on their truck engine....but...you can actually walk into a GM showroom and buy a Chevy Impala with a 5.3L V-8 Chevy engine....even though it's a front-drive car.

NASCAR needs to wake up. It's the 21st Century, guys....There are NO production cars built or sold in the USA that have carburetors.....and most don't have distributors anymore.....

Instead of "leveling the playing field" with all of the restrictive "Redneck" rules, why not start over...and race STOCK CARS....remember guys? "Run what 'cha brung?"

Of course, it wouldn't be fair.....V-8 Chevy Impalas racing V-6 and four-cylinder Fords, Dodges, and Toyotas.....But, if the cars had to be stock...that's what they would have to run.

Ford and Chrysler USED to have pretty hot engines. But, looking back, they were inefficient, primitive, and short lived dinosaurs.

[Wheel]

http://www.racetorations.com/79petty.jpg
Petty also race a chevy

[Wheel]

he wasn't too successful with the ford either-he was still a loser
Petty won 9 races in one year driving a Ford.

[olddog]

I can't really put much faith in NASCAR, anymore.

Ever since Dale Earnhardt died, I've lost interest.

Besides....it's SUPPOSED to be STOCK CAR racing....Not a bunch of silhouette cars, powered by obsolete truck engines, with stone-age carburators and distributors...

Say what you like, NASCAR has become very unrealistic.

They're all racing front-wheel-drive bodies on custom built tube frames.

Chrysler and Toyota are using engines that were "purpose built" for NASCAR, and are unavailable to the general public.

Ford uses an obsolete truck engine.....that hasn't been in production for over ten years, and never used in a Taurus...or a Fusion.

GM's engine is also based on their truck engine....but...you can actually walk into a GM showroom and buy a Chevy Impala with a 5.3L V-8 Chevy engine....even though it's a front-drive car.

NASCAR needs to wake up. It's the 21st Century, guys....There are NO production cars built or sold in the USA that have carburetors.....and most don't have distributors anymore.....

Instead of "leveling the playing field" with all of the restrictive "Redneck" rules, why not start over...and race STOCK CARS....remember guys? "Run what 'cha brung?"

Of course, it wouldn't be fair.....V-8 Chevy Impalas racing V-6 and four-cylinder Fords, Dodges, and Toyotas.....But, if the cars had to be stock...that's what they would have to run.

Ford and Chrysler USED to have pretty hot engines. But, looking back, they were inefficient, primitive, and short lived dinosaurs.
I could not agree more with the major points you made here.

I would only point out that the new Vette is nothing short of spectacular performance. The Mustang is still a true muscle car. The Crown Vic is also rear wheel drive with little wind drag. The Charger XRT 8 is impressive to drive. There still are cars that could be ran as they come from the factory that could compete. If we only got the racing bodies out of the last century, things would change.

[Da Beefster]

That is good mileage for an F-350....must be a diesel.... What's a shame is a short-box, small cab, gas engined, F-150 won't do any better....

But there is hope.....the D-1500 Dodge pickup with V-8 and automatic transmission has been voted "The worst gas mileage of any vehicle sold in the US" six years in a row, now. Second was the Lincoln Navigator, though.

Jeez really? Fer reals? Still bashing Ford's I see....nothing better to do, I guess.....And now we are moving on too Dodges......Hmmm.......I have never been a great lover of any of Dodges trucks but I can tell you this......I drove an '07 Ram 1500 4X4 with the 5.7 Hemi and the dang thing got almost 20 MPG.....and I can garantee you that I drove that son of a gun hard for 412 miles........It impressed me......Allot.

I am driving an '07 Dodge 2500 4X4 (Cummins Deisel) right now from NW Illinois to FT. Meyer Florida. I averaged 20.4 MPG to Tampa where I picked up a new 42 foot car trailer. I ran to FT Meyers and picked up 7 Light poles and turned around and headed North again.....After resetting the computer it now shows 17.9 MPG.

Ford always has had problems with fuel mileage..............Maybe GM can help them with that..............

[Da Beefster]

Well, if we're going to talk about NASCAR drivers....Mark Martin hasn't won a race in years....driving a Ford. This year, he switched to a Chevy, and won several races....I wonder why?


Oh, and yes, Ford and Chrysler DID win a lot of races back in the late '50's and early '60's....They fielded huge, gas guzzling engines, and in one case, got that type of engine banned from competition (overhead cammer).

GM didn't have anything but the small-block and the big-block truck engine...
But....later on, when NASCAR lowered the cubic inch limit...Chrysler and Ford got clobbered....

When Chrysler wanted to get back into NASCAR, they went snivelling to NASCAR because their engines were not even remotely competitive....NASCAR said they could use either a Ford or a GM engine until they developed a competitive engine.....They chose Chevy engines....in both cars and truck racing.
When Toyota wanted to join the party, they went to NASCAR....They didn't have a V-8 engine that was "legal" under NASCAR rules (they still don't)
NASCAR gave them the same choice...Ford or GM. They raced both trucks and cars with Chevy engines until they got their "racing engine" off the drawing board....NASCAR rules clearly state the engines used in the race cars must be production engines....but, you'll never be able to buy a pushrod, two-valve, Toyota V-8 anywhere on this earth.....
Recently, the Toyota off-road racing team got caught with Chevy V-8's in their racing trucks...Their excuse? They didn't want to worry about destroying their expensive Toyota engines during practice, so, they bolted in Chevy LS engines...and beat the heck out of them....
Toyota swears that their off-road racing trucks have never been raced with Chevy engines, though....

Every time you start beating us with your GM bible you show us how truly ignorant you are......

OMG MODERATORS!!!!!! I just attacked this MORON......Somebody stop me please........

[Da Beefster]

I could not agree more with the major points you made here.

I would only point out that the new Vette is nothing short of spectacular performance. The Mustang is still a true muscle car. The Crown Vic is also rear wheel drive with little wind drag. The Charger XRT 8 is impressive to drive. There still are cars that could be ran as they come from the factory that could compete. If we only got the racing bodies out of the last century, things would change.


Chrysler 300 SRT8.............Most awesome car I have ever driven.......And would spank anything GM, Toyota and probably my beloved Ford could throw at it.....

[Da Beefster]

I can't really put much faith in NASCAR, anymore.

Ever since Dale Earnhardt died, I've lost interest.

Besides....it's SUPPOSED to be STOCK CAR racing....Not a bunch of silhouette cars, powered by obsolete truck engines, with stone-age carburators and distributors...

Say what you like, NASCAR has become very unrealistic.

They're all racing front-wheel-drive bodies on custom built tube frames.

Chrysler and Toyota are using engines that were "purpose built" for NASCAR, and are unavailable to the general public.

Ford uses an obsolete truck engine.....that hasn't been in production for over ten years, and never used in a Taurus...or a Fusion.

GM's engine is also based on their truck engine....but...you can actually walk into a GM showroom and buy a Chevy Impala with a 5.3L V-8 Chevy engine....even though it's a front-drive car.

NASCAR needs to wake up. It's the 21st Century, guys....There are NO production cars built or sold in the USA that have carburetors.....and most don't have distributors anymore.....

Instead of "leveling the playing field" with all of the restrictive "Redneck" rules, why not start over...and race STOCK CARS....remember guys? "Run what 'cha brung?"
***********************************************************
Of course, it wouldn't be fair.....V-8 Chevy Impalas racing V-6 and four-cylinder Fords, Dodges, and Toyotas.....But, if the cars had to be stock...that's what they would have to run.

Ford and Chrysler USED to have pretty hot engines. But, looking back, they were inefficient, primitive, and short lived dinosaurs.

Up to the point I put all thos *** in, I was with ya on this one....but then, in true form you decided to prove to us all that you truly are an idiot...

OMG MODERATORS!!!! He did it again!!!! LOL
I love this website....I love most of these guys.........Then there are some morons that I am incapable of playing nicely with.....Where is Elby at now a days..........

[danny]

.....Where is Elby at now a days..........


:eek: you really miss him?? lol :D

i see your humor hasn't changed any :D

[justen]

The only track races I get into now days is our local stock car track which is gravel. It has to be a car with a v8 to compete. I kind of wish we had some tar track races too. But either is ok to watch from time to time. I pretty much see chrysler, gm and ford cars. Once in the while they have races for little 4 cylinder cars. Those aren't as fun to watch. Plus listening to 4 cylinders gets old.

[Da Beefster]

:eek: you really miss him?? lol :D

:D

Miss him? Maybe....at least his arguments were based on a little bit of truth....he didn't make it up as he went..............LOL

[olddog]

Beefster don't get too personal. Saltmine actually is a good guy. He just has an illogical hatred of Ford and an irrational exuberance toward Chevy. That's why you need to hang around. Point and counter point.

[vetteonr]

Saltmine actually is a good guy. He just has an logical hatred of Ford and an rational exuberance toward Chevy.

I knew there was a reason I liked him :D :D

[danny]

He just has an illogical hatred of Ford and an irrational exuberance toward Chevy. .

he used to work on fords so his experiences may be keeping him up at night. :eek: