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[Muddywoman]

I'm putting together an informative thread for another site about turbochargers and superchargers for all F-150 engines from (mostly) '97 on up and anything I can find on older F-150s too.

In the May 2006 edition of Mustangs and Fast Fords, there is a ton good stuff on turbo kits. I have been told that turbocharger kits made for the Mustang 4.6L can be installed on the F-150 4.6L with some parts being changed out. Now, here are the questions I have:

Can superchargers from Mustangs be installed on F-150s?

Will a turbocharger or supercharger made for a Mustang 4.6L work on a 5.4L, etc? What about kits for the 5.0L?

Will kits made for Mustang V8s work on the 4.2L V6 in an F-150?

What parts (the more specific the better!) would need to changed out on a turbocharger and supercharger kit to fit an F-150?

What kind impact will a supercharger have on an engine in the long run?

What kind of impact will a turbocharger (single or dual) have in an engine in the long run?

Which is better, turbo or supercharger? I've heard turbo is better (which could explain why they are used on diesels) and I don't doubt it but I'm curious to hear from you guys.

Do you know where I can find a list of parts needed to build a supercharger and turbocharger (single and dual) kit?

Thank you!

[justen]

I would think a mustang supercharger setup would probably work on a f-150 with maybe a couple changes. I found a interesting article a while back that talks a little on the difference from a turbocharger to a supercharger. Wasted exhaust driven or crank driven. Both systems have advantages and dis-advantages.
http://www.automotivearticles.com/Su...charger_.shtml

[Muddywoman]

OMG - thank you for posting that link!

[justen]

To answer your question on how the effect of long term use of a supercharger or turbocharger. Basicly the engine will last just as long as it normally does with or without super or turbo charged, As long as you keep everything changed and up-kepted. It will last a long long time. But, if you race it, hard throttle it all the time when the engine is nice and hot, you will see more wear over time. But as far as towing, and playing around once in a while. You won't see a difference.

I haven't seen any chargers for the 4.2, only one's for 4.6, 5.0 or bigger.

The typical boost provided by either a turbocharger or a supercharger is 6 to 8 pounds per square inch (psi). Since normal atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi at sea level, you can see that you are getting about 50-percent more air into the engine. Therefore, you would expect to get 50-percent more power. It's not perfectly efficient, though, so you might get a 30-percent to 40-percent improvement instead.

[Beefy's Bronco]

Very good answer Justen.

Lets address Turbo lag before somebody else does. Turbo lag is a thing of the past and is no longer a noticeable problem. Technology is a wonderful thing.

[olddog]

Muddy here are some thoughts and opinions. Anytime you operate an engine at higher HP it puts more stress on the parts. As long as you do not exceed the limits of the part, it does not break. There are parts that wear by design. The pistons and rings have huge forces exerted on them and in order to seal they operate at near metal to metal conditions with only the thinnest layer of oil protecting them most of the time. As you increase HP these wear parts will wear faster. It is not a linear thing. Small increases are negligible at low HP levels, but they become significant at high HP levels.

Specifically the modular Fords (4.6 & 5.4) have powdered metal rods that are good up to about 400 HP and will not hold up at 500 hp for certain. They will break causing major damage.

Boost, no matter how you get it, increases the air temp at the exit of the device that develops the pressure. Anytime you compress air, the air temp increases. The less efficient the device the more the air temp increase. The air temp also increases as the piston compresses the fuel air charge. If the temp reaches the auto-ignition temp of the fuel before the spark plug fires, this is called pre-detonation, and it will destroy an engine in seconds. This problem is well understood. One way to combat it is with an after-cooler (heat exchanger) located after the compression device (blower, etc.). Some are air to air heat exchangers, others are water to air heat exchangers. Another way to cool the fuel air charge is to inject a fluid that is turned to a gas that causes cooling by the latent heat of vaporization. The fluid can be fuel, water, or more exotic things.

Blowers are much more predictable and repeatable, as to where the pressure will be at a given motor RPM. There are centrifugal blowers and lobed (roots style) blowers. Centrifugal need rpm to generate pressure, so at low rpm they develop little pressure, while at high rpm they can generate very high pressure. Therefore you get torque at high rpm, but not at low rpm. The lobed blower is more positive displacement and will generate pressure at all rpm, so you can get huge torque at low rpm as well as high rpm. Blowers require a belt to drive them and therefore it takes horsepower to operate them.

There are compressors used such as the twin screw compressors. They operate like a lobed blower, as far as low rpm torque. Their advantage is that they are much more efficient than a lobed blower. Therefore they put less heat into the air, and they take less hp to do the same amount of work.

Turbo chargers are a centrifugal blower that is driven by exhaust gases rather than a belt. Turbo chargers are said to be free hp because they are driven by wasted exhaust gas. Not true. Nothing is free. The turban causes back pressure on the exhaust, and that pressure is pushed by the engines pistons, robbing power, although it is less HP than a belt would consume. Additionally the high pressure in the exhaust means that the combustion chamber is left with more exhaust gasses, leaving less volume for the next fuel/air charge. This hurts exhaust scavenging (when both exhaust and intake valve are open at the same time). (note exhaust scavenging is where you take advantage of the high velocity exhaust gas exiting the combustion chamber and use it to help pull the next fuel/air charge into the combustion chamber.) So to take full advantage of a turbo charger, the camshaft must be designed quite differently. In fairness, any boosted engine needs a camshaft tailored to its specific needs to take full advantage, but the turbo requires the most changes, and it become necessary at lower boost levels. Secondly the turbo charger causes a lot of heat build up in the head and exhaust valves. At high levels of boost, special valves are needed to prevent melting them. The turbo is perfect for the diesel as most all of these problems are eliminated by the diesels design and operation. So do not confuse the success of the turbo on a diesel as a direct swap to the gasoline engine.

All boosted engines have this problem. The extra pressure in the intake manifold is trying to push the intake valve open. The higher the boost the heavier the spring needed to hold the intake valve closed. Exotic springs are used in highly boosted engines. This fact gives two-intake valve per cylinder engines (such as the 32 valve cobra 4.6) an advantage, as the two smaller valves are easier to hold closed.

The number one problem with boosted engines is that you have to put more fuel into the engine at precisely the right time and in exactly the right amount, or very bad things happen to what was an engine. Also you need a hotter spark and a different advance curve. Another thing that people don’t think of is that engine vacuum is used to operate a lot of things on a car, like power brakes and heater dampers. When you pressurize the manifold these things no longer work. You have to clamp vacuum lines on to keep them from blowing off. It is best to put in a vacuum canister with check valves to hook all the auxiliary vacuum lines to.

Theoretically the twin screw compressor is the best boost device – my opinion. However they can all be made to work quite well. Buying a well designed kit from a good manufacture for mild HP gains can be done by yourself, but very quickly you need help from a professional tuner. Your much less likely to have problems setting up a centrifugal blower and much more likely to have problems setting up a turbo, if you are going for anything more than a mild boost.

There you have it. The opinions of one Olddog.

[justen]

One thing you have to keep in mind muddy, When ford, Chevy or dodge, build engines for trucks. You'll noticed alot of times things like the 4.6 mustang has more horsepower then a 4.6 pickup. This is done for a few different reason. One they want the engine to last so many miles. And Two, they lower the horsepower to keep the fuel economy. When ford made the 5.4 3-valve engine, They rated it for 300 hp. But I know for a fact they could of got more horsepower then that out of it. Higher compression would of changed that quickly. But instead they kept it at 300 horsepower keep fuel economy in mind, and with lower compression the engine had less stress on it and wouldn't wear out as quick. Now the 4.6 mustang and the 4.6 truck engine are probably identical. Other then the heads, And maybe camshaft. I don't know for sure cause I don't work on fords lol. But if you changed them items you basically would have a 4.6 300 horsepower mustang engine in a f-150. So horsepower is not the engine's fault, it the engineers that went by guidelines to get optimum power and economy and life expectancy and emissions controlling.

[Beefy's Bronco]

Originally Posted by justen

One thing you have to keep in mind muddy, When ford, Chevy or dodge, build engines for trucks. You'll noticed alot of times things like the 4.6 mustang has more horsepower then a 4.6 pickup. This is done for a few different reason. One they want the engine to last so many miles. And Two, they lower the horsepower to keep the fuel economy. When ford made the 5.4 3-valve engine, They rated it for 300 hp. But I know for a fact they could of got more horsepower then that out of it. Higher compression would of changed that quickly. But instead they kept it at 300 horsepower keep fuel economy in mind, and with lower compression the engine had less stress on it and wouldn't wear out as quick. Now the 4.6 mustang and the 4.6 truck engine are probably identical. Other then the heads, And maybe camshaft. I don't know for sure cause I don't work on fords lol. But if you changed them items you basically would have a 4.6 300 horsepower mustang engine in a f-150. So horsepower is not the engine's fault, it the engineers that went by guidelines to get optimum power and economy and life expectancy and emissions controlling.

Also, they build and tune the truck engines for a different torque curve. They keep the higher torque levels lower in the powerband.

[justen]

If I had a f-150 with a 4.6 I would want to experiment with it a little bit, I would do something with the heads. And maybe camshaft, And then see what my power is like, it may surprise you. That would be cheaper and more reliable then going for a supercharger or turbocharger. Then down the road if you still wanted a super/turbocharger. Atleast the engine would breath better with good set of heads. You may want to get a book like this and read it and maybe get some ideas. http://www.themotorbookstore.com/4-6...rd-engine.html

[Muddywoman]

Olddog,
So basically, stroking the engine would be better. The first edition (I think it was) of Engine Masters had an article on stroking a 4.6L. I loved and posted it here. Links to scanned copies of the article are at the bottom of the first post. I thought they did an excellent job with this article. Throughout your post, I would read something then think so I should do this (this being some thing done to stroke the engine) and read on and think the same thing about something else you wrote. That was a great explanation (even I understood it and I don't know nearly as much as anyone on this site). Thank you so much!

Originally Posted by justen

One thing you have to keep in mind muddy, When ford, Chevy or dodge, build engines for trucks. You'll noticed alot of times things like the 4.6 mustang has more horsepower then a 4.6 pickup. This is done for a few different reason. One they want the engine to last so many miles. And Two, they lower the horsepower to keep the fuel economy. When ford made the 5.4 3-valve engine, They rated it for 300 hp. But I know for a fact they could of got more horsepower then that out of it. Higher compression would of changed that quickly. But instead they kept it at 300 horsepower keep fuel economy in mind, and with lower compression the engine had less stress on it and wouldn't wear out as quick.

Third, emissions and fourth, transmissions. Diesels for example, when made by the manufacturer are rated higher in power than when consumers get their hands on them because Ford and Dodge (and I'm sure GM with the Duramax) transmissions (specifically auto trannies) can't handle the power and I know the Cummins' power is definitely dumbed down to meet emissions standards.

[justen]

yes, so really, with a few changes too any engine is possible to get more power. With or without a charger. The draw back to that, is emissions. Sometimes when you beef up a engine the o2 sensors go absolutely nuts. If you have a programmer that can be changed, otherwise buying aftermarket sensors will fix that also.

[olddog]

The best stroker kit for the 4.6 is the 5.4 engine. They both have the same bore, a little over 3 1/2 inches. The 4.6 has a little over a 3 1/2 inch stroke and the 5.4 has just under a 4 1/4 inch stroke.

My personal opinion is that the 4.6 is not a good engine to stroke, as the pistons are pulled nearly out the bottom of the block as it is. They have to shorten up the ring area to stroke this engine. There are several kits out there and people are doing it. The cost is high, and I think engine life is reduced. I think the 5.4 with the taller deck hieght is already a better engine and likely more cost affective. I understand that the 5.4 doesn't fit well in a mustang, but a truck does not have this limitation.

A good set of ported heads on a 5.4 and a little more lift on the cam, will make good power. Good low in torque and 400 hp is very do-able. Don't forget to feed it more fuel.

[justen]

I'd like to see muddy get her hands dirty and make a 4.6 stroker. I love stroker engines. To bad I'm not familiar enough with ford engines to help out on a build like that. The only ford engine I have laying in the shed is a old 221 CID. And thats about as close to ford I get. And that engine isn't even mine, it's the wife's lol

[Muddywoman]

For quite a while I did consider dropping in a crate engine but (1) I don't enough about engines to choose and (2) the engine bays barely have any room to work on the engine with just the 4.6L in there on these trucks ('97 to '03). I changed my plugs and wires before we left Phoenix and I am not kidding when I say that my hands look like I got into a cat fight. If I look hard enough, I can find a couple scars but they're just little reminders so no biggie. Anyway, that engine bay is tiny. Anyone have any idea of the biggest crate engine I could fit in there?

While we're on the subject of strokers, if I'm going to give my little truck some real b@lls someday, what tranny should I back it up with? Auto only please!

[justen]

well I'm not sure but the 5.4 maybe the same size as the 4.6. I guess any small block crate should pop right in. As for tranny beefy or someone would know which one you need.