92 Cutlas Supreme check gages light then stalls, won't restart

[msC]

I need some help cause right now we're just chasing our tails
My daughter has a 92 Cutlas Supreme, car will run fine then all the sudden the check gages light will come on, gages go nuts, then it stalls and cannot get it restarted.
Last time, replaced coil pack then ignition module, car started and ran for a few days. Did the same thing but this time my daughter felt it coming and did a brake and gas drive to get it home. Replaced the Throttle Positioning sensor, ran great for about 20 miles off and on, then that night she drove it about 5 miles, was coasting into parking lot, gages went nuts, check gages came on and it stalled and we have yet to get it restarted. Replaced oxygen sensor and EGR valve cause computer hook up coded for EGR but to no avail can we get it started.
Spark plugs and wires have been replaced.... please help with any input.

[olddog]

In the old days we checked to see if it was a fuel or spark problem. Today the ECU controls both fuel and spark. Since the gauges are going nuts, I suspect the ECU. Maybe a ground issue, maybe the ECU its self is going bad. It could be a problem with the 12 V positive going to the ECU.

Just guesses at this point.

[msC]

Thank you for your reply, I have told her Dad to check into the ECU....whether or not he will is a differet story just because of frustration at this point. He had taken it to someone to have an oil leak fixed and the front passenger strut prior to my daughter getting the car and that is when all this started happening, car was driving fine before this from what I understand. (His girlfriend's daughter had driven this car for 4 years prior to my daughter getting the car)
I'll let you know what we find out...

[carsandcycles]

My first thought was battery, battery cables, grounds, ignition switch. I would eliminate the connections (as a problem) first.

[thcardoc]

This Oldsmobile is a good example of the kinds of things we have to solve on a regular basis. The line quickly blurs from between being a mechanic/technician to being a detective. The information about the gages becoming erratic, and the "Check Gages" light coming on can easily be a solid lead, or a total red herring. We quite often don't know which way this car will turn out to be until we get to prove one or more of the faults. With a practiced routine at the ready, and with specific testing points chosen in advance we can actually do the majority of the fault testing on this in seconds. The rub is that it sometimes takes a few weeks to get the issue to display itself to get to invest that time. We often times have to simply take the car for random drives, chase parts, even use it as a daily driver and be ready to attack this the moment it acts up, no matter where we might be.

Some of the things I would want to know specifically is how likely is the car to act up on any given trip? Is it more or less likely to occur if it is driven 1-2 miles, 5 to 7 miles, 10 to 15 miles? Does a prolonged down time influence the condition? Does a trip, followed by shutting the car off for a given time, (5 min, 10 min, 30 min, an hour, etc) appear to make it more likely for the symptom to occur? Is the car likely to act up every day, every other day, or once a week or month?

Now the gages were mentioned as being erratic, when the car stalls, is there anything else that isn't working correctly when this car stalls such as the power windows, power seats, radio?

What testing has been done, and that doesn't mean what parts have been replaced. Do you have a fuel pressure gage and is there fuel pressure when the problem occurs? Do you have a tool to test for spark? How about a stethoscope to listen to the injectors to see if they are being commanded on when cranking? When the problem occurs will a scan tool communicate to the PCM? Is it setting any codes and can you see data from the PCM? What about any other modules that might be on the car, can you communicate with them? (Antilock Brakes, Airbag, Instrument Cluster etc.)

I can throw out a lot of silver bullets on this which is what many people think they want. One such "fix" is the ground bus that is attached to the harness under the carpet or kick panel by the drivers left foot. It's prone to corrosion and will cause a random voltage drop on the ground circuit. This ground circuit can shut down the fuel pump, as well as the fuel sending unit, (that results in a stall and a check gages light) but it also disturbs several other circuits with them. The trick is you could simply go look and find that ground bus (splice) corroded and needing serviced if you just go look at it, but without getting to directly associate that to the failure reported you could fix "A Problem" and yet not fix "The Problem". By now you should picture it makes for difficult work when everyone wants right now, fast, and fixed the first time, and the only way you will reliably accomplish this is to slow down, be patient, efficient, and disciplined with your approach. One of the testing points, should the power windows also fail to stop working when the problem occurs would be one of the power window switches. The circuit is either losing power or ground and there is a point (passengers door window switch) where that can be confirmed without accidently disturbing the harness and risking having the problem go back into hiding before you make some progress in figuring the problem out.

BTW, the reason we have to "forget" the list of what's already been replaced is sometimes new parts fail, or there could be an installation or connector issue. By approaching the car with no assumptions proper testing will lead you to the problem no matter where it is.

If you can answer some of the questions I have asked about the circumstances of the frequency of the event, it's duration once it occurs, and maybe even ambient weather conditions that seem to be triggers I can tell you what to test for first and how to do it. That will help narrow the focus on just the affected system (circuit)

[danny]

thcardoc, great response, very clear explanations and information. thank you

[Porcupine]

I concur
1992 = bad grounds, fatigue over the years, 1992 also equals rust/corrsion in unwanted spots.

Could-be doesn't really help at this point.
Because it's a 92 someone needs to take his time and go through a few connections, mainly ground. The unfortunate thing is there may be a bad connection inside a wiring loom.

I would hook up a volt meter at a coil pack and with the ignition turned on but with engine NOT running; wiggle a few wires throughout the wire looms and watch that volt meter for any fluxuation or anomaly.

I'm not 100% but I do believe GM had those constant problems at the junction block on the firewall between engine compartment and cab. I would start there first with your wiggle routine. First the one under the hood and then inside the cab

[msC]

I want to thank each of you for your replies.... after much frustration and searching, the problem has been fixed. It was the CAM Shaft Sensor, it was broken off in the engine block. I would assume this got damaged when the oil leak was fixed cause the car ran fine prior to that, but that is my assumption and the only explanation I have for the damaged part.
My daughter is a happy camper again .... the car may be old, but to her, it's her teenage freedom.
Thank you again to all of you! Happy Monday to you.

[thcardoc]

Originally Posted by msC

I want to thank each of you for your replies.... after much frustration and searching, the problem has been fixed. It was the CAM Shaft Sensor, it was broken off in the engine block.

Thanks for the response and the news that you got this fixed.

I would assume this got damaged when the oil leak was fixed cause the car ran fine prior to that, but that is my assumption and the only explanation I have for the damaged part.

When possible I like to promote a different view as to what may have occured. Parts like a cam sensor don't get broken during servicing and make it out the door. In fact if there was any question as to the sensors integrity while the engine is apart we would simply replace it because as you see it's not worth the trouble that could ensue. Cars break whenever they darn well want to, and you never have trouble with it right up until the moment that you do. The most likely explanation is the sensor simply failed, and could even have "broken" as a result of the effort required to try and remove it. That means it's no-ones fault and it was just a car doing what cars do, break and need repaired.

My daughter is a happy camper again .... the car may be old, but to her, it's her teenage freedom.
Thank you again to all of you! Happy Monday to you.

(Secret to a happy day, make sure the wife and kids are happy)

[msC]

Originally Posted by thcardoc

(Secret to a happy day, make sure the wife and kids are happy)

Wish the ex-husband would have had that motto

[danny]

Originally Posted by msC

Wish the ex-husband would have had that motto

would you be miss c?

[NutriaforLunch]

See if the alternator is putting out by checking the voltage at the
battery terminals while it is running

[KA9MOT]

Check engine light = Pull codes. That car has an OBD computer (before 1996 and OBD2) and you don't even need a reader. Just a wire jumper. The stored codes would have taken you right to that cam sensor.

http://twoguysgarage.com/forum/showp...49&postcount=5

[msC]

Originally Posted by danny

would you be miss c?

Originally Posted by KA9MOT

Check engine light = Pull codes. That car has an OBD computer (before 1996 and OBD2) and you don't even need a reader. Just a wire jumper. The stored codes would have taken you right to that cam sensor.

http://twoguysgarage.com/forum/showp...49&postcount=5

It was read with a reader and it stated EGR valve not the cam sensor

And the Miss would mean a single woman that's never been married, once married and divorced she becomes a Ms. ;-)

[danny]

Originally Posted by msC

And the Miss would mean a single woman that's never been married, once married and divorced she becomes a Ms. ;-)

ok thanks, welcome to the board ms c