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Old 11-28-2007, 10:26 PM
spazinout spazinout is offline
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98 Pontiac Bonneville 3800

the Bonneville is my wife car she came home and told me the check coolant light was on so i go out there and coolant is real low so is oil real low she doesn't drive if far.i can hear the slight ticking when i start it so i add oil and coolant ticking stop after the oil and coolant were added run it for 10 minutes and take up the road and back every thing seams fine shut it off start it 4 time problem solved the next morning she starts it every thing fine goes to work tell me ran great yahooo she didn't seize the motor... lol she done it before. not lol.but after work she goes out and it wont start .i go there and turn it over and the starter trying to crank it over but it wont crank.so i think its seized but then i put a ratchet on the crank case and it moves the engine not seized yahoo so i keep turning the crankcase and i get to a point and stop and then i try to start it it crank a half turn seem then got to the same spot and the starter stops so i crank the crank case counter clock wise and it get to a point and seem it wont go any further though i was compressing the engine so i would stop and see if the starter would start so after moving crankcase to turn the engine it starts to turn over and didn't get stuck at the usual point yahoo so then it keep tuning over and over no start it has a good spark it getting fuel .so it doesn't start so i think it might be flooded i leave for a hour and get some starter fluid come back and spray some quik start in the air in take and i go to crank it over and the its jammed the starter work great i now when some thing not working so it wont crank the engine a inch... so i turn the crankcase a few time it seems to get to certain point and then it it start turning over like it should but still wont start it seems its gonna start i can hear it sputter as if the trying to fire the fuel when turning the engine over i feel it get stuck and it wasn't the compression cause after a couple of time turning it it would turn the complete full rotatinion and i notice it not hang up after i made a complete turn and it turn over with easy after i give it some help what could be causing this does a 3800 motor have a timing chain or belt i was think the chain could be what makes it jam up and as for starting maybe the timing of because the chain jumped the sprocket or does it have a belt for the timing chain what eles could make the engine hang up

Last edited by spazinout; 12-02-2007 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:06 AM
dbf dbf is offline
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It has a timing chain. Might be hydro locked-those plastic intakes are known for leaking coolant into the cylinders. Pull the plugs and try to spin it with the starter.
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:06 PM
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thanks for the timing chain info. why would the motor act like it seized and then i turn the cam and it seems to free it up what could be the cause of that i will check plugs today what could make it hang up and not turn over dont hear any noise when it does crank no rapping or clunking ..could you explains this hydro locking thing

Last edited by spazinout; 11-29-2007 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 11-29-2007, 04:24 PM
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Hydro locking is a cylinder filling with a NON-compressable fluid (like antifreeze). Since it's can't compress it, it locks the engine. If you pull the plugs and spin the engine and it spits out antifreeze, you've got "issues". The plugs should also give it away. Luckily, the 3800 is a non-interference engine-if it's the timing chain the engine has a good chance of surviving.

A timing chain is not a huge deal but you will need a few specialty tools to get things apart and with the engine being sideways, you have to do a lot of it through the wheel well on the passenger side.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:26 PM
spazinout spazinout is offline
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thank you dbf .i think i have bigger problem now went to check plugs today no coolant but lots of fuel on the plugs and i found major gas in the oil pan. so then i tried to start it today and it wouldnt turn over yesterday i would turn crankcase counter clock wise and then i would try to turn the car over it would do a complete turnover but today it was jamed i couldnt turn the cam a inch i was like wth so my buddy said the starter might be locking up and preventing the cam from turnover but i told him it did this yesterday and turned over but wouldn't start so when we took start out it was weird the cam did move wow i was shocked but then we put new starter in and it would turn over half the rotation and get stuck.so some thing preventing it from making a rotation and then i pulled the dip stick and notice i had just put 4 quart of oil and the dip stick oil level was to high looked over the line way over and i could smell the gas in the oil and see the oil had thin out from the gas.how would gas get in the oil sound like piston the other day no ping or rapping or clunking when i turned it over at least 30 different time try to get it to start and i found the oil sensor the wirer was broke that explains why the wife said the oil light didnt come on it weird car did run low on and coolant for about and oil 10 minut drive but the car has alway run smooth and always started as for the hydro lock it was real low on coolant so i dont think that was the problem i do alot of my fixing my self i used to pull part at a junk yard so i know a lot about engine but when it get the insides im not as knowledgeable this has neverhappened . i love the 3800 motors are a dream to replace part well the starter wasn't so easy lmao on the cold ground. sorry for my bad grammar and thanks again for your help

Last edited by spazinout; 12-02-2007 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:01 PM
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1st, you can't turn the cam directly (without taking the front of the engine apart), you were turing the crankshaft if you we using the lowest pully. If you are real low on coolant-it had to go SOMEWHERE. Do you have the plastic composite intake manifold (not the metal one)? If you can't turn the engine with the crank bolt with the plugs OUT, you've most likely have a seized engine. I just changed a Bonneville plastic intake today, it leaked and used up all the coolant in a couple of miles. The intake was full of coolant. Changed the manifold and the fluids-runs like a dream again but it sure ran like DODO and had 8 quarts of brown mud in the crankcase when I drained the oil.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:22 PM
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Sounds almost like a piston ring is gone. Could even be wedged.
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:11 PM
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your right not cam. i turned the crank case . when i turn the crankcase it get stuck at a certain point the other day it would get stuck but when i turn it a couple of time it would free up and allow the car to turn over but wouldn't start the car always starts. as for coolant the radiator might be leaking it out never notice it leaking in the drive way one thing i did notice was the day i added coolant and toped of the oil after i started it i noticed lots of white fog not so much smoke from the exhaust when i revved the engine and then took it for a drive and the fog went away it was a weird temperature that night kind of warm slash cold and thought the fog was from the weather .when turning crankcase counter clock wise it would go all the way around but if i went clock wise it get to a point and jams up thank you guys. hey justen would that cause fuel to fill up the oil pan . i was trying to start it the other day for a couple of hours but the next day the crank case wouldn't go past the hang up point and when it did turn over never hear griding or scraping no clunking and it always sounded like a normal turn over .is a piston ring expensive i cant afford to put it in the shop and i do have some mechanic friend that could help me i gonna talk to them later .iis this a easy or hard to fix thing .

Last edited by spazinout; 12-02-2007 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:31 PM
spazinout spazinout is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justen
Sounds almost like a piston ring is gone. Could even be wedged.
This might explains why one day i could get it to turn over and the next it wouldnt when i first got to the car the first of 3 days i turned the key the starter jammed so i turn the crank case to see if she had seized the engine and it turned and i was so happy till the next day then it was jammed and i turn the crank case bolt but it would hang at the same spot each time i think on the first day it was wedged and when i turned the crank case it freed it up so it would turn over and from trying to start it so much it jammed it up more .does the white fog tie in with this i know about head gasket blowing and the exhaust didn't have that sweat smell anti freeze give off when burn so im thinking it was the gas burning off the oil which would explains why when she drove it and it dieing the next day if the ring is wedge this would would mess up the compression and screw the timing so it wouldn't start im not sure about how every thing works in a engine but im starting to lean towards what justen thinks its kind of what im thinking some thing broke from the engine heating up and would explains why the crank case doesn't turn clock wise thank you guys have been great and very help full.. i like this place
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Old 12-02-2007, 07:11 PM
spazinout spazinout is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbf
Hydro locking is a cylinder filling with a NON-compressable fluid (like antifreeze). Since it's can't compress it, it locks the engine. If you pull the plugs and spin the engine and it spits out antifreeze, you've got "issues". The plugs should also give it away. Luckily, the 3800 is a non-interference engine-if it's the timing chain the engine has a good chance of surviving.

A timing chain is not a huge deal but you will need a few specialty tools to get things apart and with the engine being sideways, you have to do a lot of it through the wheel well on the passenger side.
im starting to figure it all out . i think it is hydro lock from fuel ..that would explains fuel in my oil and the lock up the car not home yet might get it towed some where to work on it... pull front 3 plugs and they had some fuel on them and it was time to replace them the gap was way off but the car ran great before any ways Monday i hope to pull the back 3 plug to see what cylinder is fill with gas and that will tell me which inject is failing and spraying fuel full time i hope this is what wrong didn't know till read it from another post that fuel can hydrolock too you said a non combustible and that threw me off from your post on hydro lock... i know i need to take all the plug out and make sure cylinders are dry from fuel change oil and lube piston wall with wd40 and the use some kind of mystery oil after that run it for awhile and change oil again to make sure the oil not contaminate.. first replace the faulty injector did i miss any thing thanks again guys
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:03 PM
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the term "non compressable" was used not non combustible. too much fuel will foul the plug causing it not to fire and can/will cause hydro lock.
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:41 PM
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It's almost impossible to hydrolock with fuel, it would take alot of cycles with the valves closed to do it. A cooling leak is almost always how hydrolock occurs. A cylinder is flooded with coolant on a compression stroke (all the valves are closed) and the piston pushes against a cylinder filled with an INCOMPRESSABLE fluid. This typically bends things like connecting rods. You need to PULL ALL THE PLUGS AT THE SAME TIME. Try to spin the engine then, if you can't-IT'S BROKEN-A piston or valve let go and is hanging the engine up internally. The engine will have to a the very least be opened to examine what happened.

Last edited by dbf; 12-02-2007 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 12-02-2007, 11:01 PM
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I'd like to drain the oil. And maybe see whats in it. Maybe or maybe not metal shavings in there. Maybe fuel in the oil. (or antifreeze you never know) If there is too much fuel in the oil. Then the engine could seize. If that's the case maybe the engine is no good for a overhaul. Depends how bad the cylinders are scared up. Most engines. Even on the compression stroke you can turn over. It's tough but it goes. Sounds like one thing or the other has bind this one up and either time to replace the engine or tear it apart and see whats left. Another thing I was thinking of. If a person opened the timing chain cover. You could see if the cam is stuck then you would need to fix the upper end. If it's not the cam then you'll Be looking at the lower end. And when the lower end goes bad. Don't be surprised you'll need a different engine block. A lot of possibilities. Only way to know for sure is pull this and that off and see if the engine will turn. Eventually you'll find out what it is. I guess if this was my car and I wanted it dependable again. I would go to a local auto parts store and order a long block with a good warranty. Then you take the parts. Like intake, oil pan, sensors off the oil block and put them on the new block. But you'll need to start pulling things off the engine to see what you got.

I've had troubles like this before, but usually is something simple like a stuck power steering pump. But it sounds like this time it was the engine. Not a great thing to happen.
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Last edited by justen; 12-02-2007 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 12-03-2007, 08:04 PM
spazinout spazinout is offline
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i went today pulled all the plugs. i pulled the back left plug first and liquid came out not a lot i didnt get a chance to smell it or touch it was raining and couldn't tell it was quick and very little liquid came out so i move to the middle back plug when i pulled the plug nothing came out so then i took all the plugs out none of them had liquid run out . all the spark plugs looked like it was time to replace and gap was off so i put a rag near each hole so i could tell which plug hole was gonna shot the liquid out i was by me self no support lol and then i turn it over and the middle back plug shot some liquid out and it was definitely gas and wasn't a lot. enough to wet the rag area about the size of a baseball spot on the rag smell like pure gas no water i think alot of the gas evaporated over night the left back that had leaked a little liquid when the plug first came out didn't squirt anything and when i turn it over it was easy and no bad noises only did it a couple of times in case the gas in the oil will harm the engine waiting for friends to tow it tomorrow i want to get that oil out before i put plugs back in and try to start it hopefully. talked with mechanic /friend and they said maybe the valve got stuck from build up or the fuel rail is dumping major fuel causing the hydro or bad injectors lock ..who knows they haven't looked at it yet .. i want to keep thanking you guy for you help and knowledge all of you that take the time to help others great job guys what will happen if it is a fuel hydro lock could i get lucky and it would run the same as before this happened . what will have to do if the fuel rail is gone or how do you tell if it gone or if the injectors are bad is there a way to tell.... if the intake thing was gone it would of been water in the cylinder correct and the intake is that plastic crap just so you know dbf
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Old 12-03-2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justen
I'd like to drain the oil. And maybe see whats in it. Maybe or maybe not metal shavings in there. Maybe fuel in the oil. (or antifreeze you never know) If there is too much fuel in the oil. Then the engine could seize. If that's the case maybe the engine is no good for a overhaul. Depends how bad the cylinders are scared up. Most engines. Even on the compression stroke you can turn over. It's tough but it goes. Sounds like one thing or the other has bind this one up and either time to replace the engine or tear it apart and see whats left. Another thing I was thinking of. If a person opened the timing chain cover. You could see if the cam is stuck then you would need to fix the upper end. If it's not the cam then you'll Be looking at the lower end. And when the lower end goes bad. Don't be surprised you'll need a different engine block. A lot of possibilities. Only way to know for sure is pull this and that off and see if the engine will turn. Eventually you'll find out what it is. I guess if this was my car and I wanted it dependable again. I would go to a local auto parts store and order a long block with a good warranty. Then you take the parts. Like intake, oil pan, sensors off the oil block and put them on the new block. But you'll need to start pulling things off the engine to see what you got.

I've had troubles like this before, but usually is something simple like a stuck power steering pump. But it sounds like this time it was the engine. Not a great thing to happen.
never ran it with fuel in the oil ive tried to start it but it never did start i had just added four quarts before all this crap started i think the little over heating and low coolant got thing a bit warm and then the hydro locked up and i was pushing the gas peddle some of the time flooding the the cylinder with fuel my bad.when fuel was found so i might be at fault for the major amount of gas in the oil and i took the belt off so i know it not a power steering pulley plugs were bad and not gap right probably from the the lock up and that why it wouldnt start before.
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