e-3 plugs

[danny]

anybody have any experience with the e-3 plugs? they are a little pricey

[Saltmine]

I put a set in my old '84 Chevy S-10 blazer, 2.8 V-6.

I thought I had something, at first, but decided to go back to GM stuff and installed A/C "Rapidfire" plugs. Darned if the gas mileage didn't increase 2mpg.

There's a zillion "novelty" sparkplug manufacturers out there. They've been making "special" sparkplugs since the automobile was first invented, and they'll be trying to get our money 'til the end of time.

Good, name brand sparkplugs ALWAYS work better than "gimmick" sparkplugs.

[olddog]

Amen

[Porcupine]

I'll go out on a limb and suggest these fancy-dancy plugs are about the same type of gimmick as the Tornado (oh ya, I had to bring that up again )

In my opinion, a good guarenteed spark is a spark, is a spark. Like Saltmine said the big names have been doing this for years and if anyone has the expertise to improve then they do.

That said, when I worked on our fleet of Lincoln welders with the Continental flat head 4 cyclinder we found that the Champion plug always fouled up and we didn't know why. We used Autolite, Prestolite and AC Delco and never encountered that problem. Keep in mind that these welding machines idled a lot and when a low compression engine idles it tends to build up carbon. We used to dead short the exciter and load the engine and we'd see all kinds of carbon spewing from the exhaust stack when they came in for service.
But even without carbon we found the Champions did not maintain their spark. The worst we found was when we had Champions on the 2 cylinder Onan engine powered by propane. Just not enough BTU for the Chmapion to fire. We also had some guys in our shop use Champions in their cars and found they didn't perform as well as the other brands. YET, Champions tend to work perfect in the typical lawnmower and snow blower and other small engine application. We had a major fleet of these welders and kept records of which machines had which plugs. It was sort of a comparison test.
This does NOT mean that Champions are bad plugs by any means, it simply means that Champions did not perform under our application.
I'm curious how well Champions worked in those race cars that were sponsored by Champion.

Remember the old Spark-o-matic?

[danny]

funny you would mention onan engines. actually this is the reason i posted this thread, i don't have access to the prestolite plugs originally used in this onan engine and the champions(only cross listing replacement) don't seem to do well. i was looking for a good replacement plug and happened to see the e3's were supposed to fire better than conventional plugs but don't want to waste money on an unproven product.

[Saltmine]

There are some very good reasons Champion plugs are used in race cars, Jerry.
One is the fact that for a long period of time, Champion was the only manufacturer that made alcohol (methaol) plugs specifically. They also offered side gap, pinned racing plugs, and their aircraft plugs were used in millions of piston engined aircraft.

The other thing about racing is; you don't have to run the same plugs for hundreds and thousands of miles in a racing environment. Spark plugs seldom last more than one race.
Due to their nickel plating, they are easier to read than more common black oxide treated plugs, and are easier to clean.

But, sparkplugs have come a long way, and although Champion tried to keep up with the times, they still find homes in a lot of lawn and garden equipment, like chain saws, weed eaters, leaf blowers, and small gensets.

Strangely enough, only one manufacturer recommends Champion plugs as OE....Chrysler.
Of course, they also have a relatively short plug replacement interval (30,000 miles) as opposed to Ford and GM (100,000 miles) And most of the correct plugs are non-resistor, plated Champion. I don't really see the economy in having to replace 16 sparkplugs in a Dodge "hemi" every 30,000 miles, instead of 8 platinum tipped plugs in a Ford or GM every 100,000 miles. You still pay less for the platinum plugs, in the long run, plus the labor to replace them.

Another thing.....since Champion plugs work well in lawn equipment and garden power tools....what does this say about the revered Dodge "Hemi"?

[dougbfresh]

I always buy the GM Iridium or rapidfire plugs for my GM's-works fine-lasts a long time. The are a little pricey, but even an oil change that I do for the C5 these days costs $50. Even pads and rotors these days are out of sight for decent stuff.

[dougbfresh]

Originally Posted by Saltmine

Another thing.....since Champion plugs work well in lawn equipment and garden power tools....what does this say about the revered Dodge "Hemi"?

Have to say, GM has really done a fantastic job with the LSx series of engines-400-600+ HP versions right from the factory. Challengers look cool but I love my LSx engines.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by dougbfresh

Have to say, GM has really done a fantastic job with the LSx series of engines-400-600+ HP versions right from the factory. Challengers look cool but I love my LSx engines.

I don't hang around in GM circles, but quite Cobra guys have a Vette for the daily driver. I have not heard anything bad about the LS engines.

Wish I could afford both.

[Porcupine]

Originally Posted by danny

funny you would mention onan engines. actually this is the reason i posted this thread, i don't have access to the prestolite plugs originally used in this onan engine and the champions(only cross listing replacement) don't seem to do well. i was looking for a good replacement plug and happened to see the e3's were supposed to fire better than conventional plugs but don't want to waste money on an unproven product.

I liked Saltmine's answer about the race cars. That makes sense. Not exactly going to Walmart and around town.

Danny: I checked the Onan website and they have a few recommendations.
Now before we go too deep in my attack on Champion, We must remember what applications our Champions were used under.

First: the Onan was striclty a propane power unit. Low BTU therefore low combustability. Unfortunately we didn't have any gasoline powered Onans to make comparison.

Second: The Continental flat head was also low compression ....AND.... this was dating back to when we had leaded gas. How many centuries ago was that?

I would venture to say that things have changed during that time. I would also think that that when we used propane powered equipment that propane MAY not have been all that common place back then on a commercial application, let alone small engines. I really don't know, just guessing.

I suppose the bottom line is to check with manufacturers and see what they recommend for individual engines.
BTW we never had Internet back then either, so research was limited to the "counter or parts guy" and hopefully he knew something.

[PencilPro]

I'll probably get a disagreement but I saw this plug tested on a dyno and it improved the fuel mileage and horsepower rating on the engine. Not to say that some engines may not like the plug and see a decrease in horsepower but the one I saw did!

[Saltmine]

Unfortunately, you can do practically anything with statistics. A sharp advertising writer can make anything look good on paper.

I've seen what these "novelty" plugs are worth in the field, and I guess my opinion doesn't count against a paper shuffler in some advertising firm.

If you think they work...go buy a set and install them in your ride. but don't come around here crying because you paid grand theft money for something that didn't work in your car. I could have repeated that exact same test, on that exact same dyno and come up with vastly different results, even with other brand engines....I don't doubt that a little cash went under the table to help sway the results...but what do I know? (How do you think Dodge trucks got "Motor Trend Truck of the Year"? It wasn't because they're great trucks, that's for sure.)

On the subject of low compression engines and propane (LNG) fuels. According to my ancient gaseous fuels manual, LNG and propane fuelled engines need a hotter plug, and usually, depending on the type of load placed on them, a bit more advance.
The manual goes into great detail regarding the tailoring of the advance curve, and several tests to confirm the modifications. With a lower BTU content, you usually have to accept lower horsepower. Most LNG engines are rated way below their theoretical output simply for this reason.

We had Continental flathead four-bangers on most of our welding trucks, and when they started carboning up their plugs, I would just go up one heat range on the plugs, and leave it at that.. The change usually cured the problem.

Too bad you weren't around when we had the big "Tornado" vegetable slicer debate, PencilPro, the politics alone would have driven you to distraction.

[PencilPro]

Originally Posted by Saltmine

Unfortunately, you can do practically anything with statistics. A sharp advertising writer can make anything look good on paper.

I've seen what these "novelty" plugs are worth in the field, and I guess my opinion doesn't count against a paper shuffler in some advertising firm.

If you think they work...go buy a set and install them in your ride. but don't come around here crying because you paid grand theft money for something that didn't work in your car. I could have repeated that exact same test, on that exact same dyno and come up with vastly different results, even with other brand engines....I don't doubt that a little cash went under the table to help sway the results...but what do I know? (How do you think Dodge trucks got "Motor Trend Truck of the Year"? It wasn't because they're great trucks, that's for sure.)

I agree that you may waste your money.
I also know that indexing a plug will also increase the horsepower if you want to be sure to get a gain and you'll spend less money trying things that may or may not work!
The principal is basically the same with the e-3 anyways.

[Saltmine]

Actually, E3 plugs are all but impossible to "index", due to their three legged ground terminals. And they have a tendency to shroud the spark.

The idea for E3 is lifted from old design aircraft sparkplugs which have four ground wires surrounding a center electrode. A PITA to adjust, they worked great in slow turning, high compression, magneto ignition engines. Four electrodes wore away at a much slower rate than one.

If you wanted a plug that didn't shroud the spark, an "alcohol specific" spark plug would be ideal. Again, a real pain to adjust (requires a special tool) but there's no ground wire to shroud the spark.

When you spend hours searching for infinitesimal bits of power to apply to basically stock powerplants, the "build quality" of mass production is usually more than enough to negate any increases you might expect. Even hand built cars and engines like the Bugatti, builders seldom delve into such trivial quests for "extra" power.


The only "true" advantage you gain is in the "bench racing" department. But I don't go there.